Rift=2dkp, Watcher=1? Z's Remedy

[Zaire]

I am going to be rather frank, because I don't feel like gussying this up to be formal, we are a Kinship (which translates to a family of sorts).

First of all, I can totally see the need to give something to those that run the rift, which enables the kinship to attack the Watcher. The Rift is a 3hour time-sink of old content that we once begged to be beyond, but it has it's worth. So is that worth twice as much as taking down the watcher? Hell no, and you know it aint.

So, so long as we are offering differing ammounts of dkp to differing raids, I suggest we counterbalance the rift rewards with heavier rewards on completing the watcher himself! You got me?

So as it we have...

Rift=2dkp Watcher=1dkp.
WRONG!

Lets follow a hypothetical train of thought to what may seem fair...

Rift=2 Watcher=2.
Again the balance of an obsolete raid with a coveted one is dubious.

Rift=2 Watcher=3
Better and yet, the efforts of those running the watcher are still cheapened.

Rift=2 Watcher=4
The ratio still seems unbalanced because we are recieving 2 hope of the entire 6 hope that is required. We would be overcompensating by rewarding 1/2 of the dkp earned to something that only enables 1/3 of the hope required to run the instance.

Rift=2 Watcher=5
Finally here, we have the threshold of what would seem to be balanced. Those that run the rift are being rewarded, and are given a token of appreciation, and yet that token does not trump the action of completeing our goal as a whole. This addition of larger numbers also begins to balance the current discpentcy in pre-moria dkp and post moria dkp used on a single new raid(so that people that havn't helped in 3 months can't simply show up and say, THANKS BYE). This also allows pre-moria dkp to be retained and applicable to the things we roll on within the watcher.

The 5/2 ratio is a strong balance to many of the issues we are facing with dkp, and future issues with dkp divisions between The Rift and the Watcher. If you agree or disagree then say so, /sign so if you are on board, but we need action NOW before the Watcher is taken down, and presedence is made. We have only a few days to mobilize these decisions before we take the watcher down, so we must speak loudly as a kin to address this issue before it manifests into a new (retro-active-change) issue alltogether.

(I am farming the watcher predominantly for those that kill the watcher, not for those that have killed the Balrog the most. If these rewards are reversed, as they are now, don't expect my help.)

[Thamros]

Well here's my thought on it.
1. Successful Rift run = 1 attempted Watcher run.
2. Can you run the rift without the Watcher radiance gear, hell yes.
3. Can you run the Watcher without the rift hope, hell no.
4. Which run seems more important to you?
5. People running th Rift need some incentive as this has been done a hundred thousand times before and why we were all screaming for new content.
6. The Watcher content is fresh and new if you need extra incentive to go and get gear and loot, don't look at me to give it to you.
7. I think the whole thing balances out. You will have people that will run the watcher without ever doing any of the rift runs and if someone really wants to spend all their time getting dkp by doing the rift runs then more power to them. Howerer if someone is running both the Rift and the Watcher as the case should be then they will still come up with more dkp than the person that runs one or the other.
8. With your scenario of Rift 2, Watcher 5, why would anyone want to run the Rift and get only 2 dkp when they can run the Watcher and get 5 dkp and whatever loot they need. You would end up with the same group of people always running the rift because they are the really dedicated ones who want to see the Watcher fight go off and everyone else who only goes to the watcher fight will reap the rewards without having contribute to the rift hope.

And so in keeping in theme of keeping it frank(real), get a hold of yourself man. Oh, and when does the whole we are a kin which translates into a sort of a family come into play and I hope most people would help out their family with no added benefit except the joy of seeing the family succeed.


Respectfully,
Thamros

[Maie]

Not sure about actual dkp numbers but I do think if you are on the watcher list, you should do the rift runs or at least be there and be available.

[Hathor]

I have to agree with Tham on this one. We got 2 dkp for the rift because it was done on 2 days. Thats not the case now. Also, those of us who did put in rift time to help others gear up 3 months ago as you said, should not have our dkp de-valued. Now, it is very nice of you to help on these expedition runs, but there are others (me included) that would also be willing to put in time to help learn the strat. We cant because its officers and class leaders first (which is the way it should be).

Keeping it real - if we're family, why should we not expect your help if you dont get your way?

[Zaire]

Ok, the idea that I have seen picked up by the majority of other kins, that seems glaringly fair, is that all of the dkp be reset, or set apart with the new raid. Much like that of any 6 man instance that we walk into, everyone gets their rotation, until everyone has gotten a piece. Unfortunately that idea didn't take hold with our kin so we are left paying old dues from 3-4 months ago. I am also one of the ones that have a good bit saved in my wallet for this very occasion, but I see the flaw in it now. This is a new instance that deserves a new rotation, just as every instance has been treated within the 6-mans that brought us to this point. I have been told though, that the time for resetting dkp has come and went, so we are left with an imbalance that has no other way of working, other than working it's way out over a few months. This system is a means to rectify that by striking a quicker balance than waiting 3 months will accomplish.

Also, the Rift is only neccessary because there has not been a concerted effort by the leadership to outfit the people of kin with those final two radience pieces. Those two radience pieces are the other avenue to the Watcher, should we not also be given dkp for completing and outfitting one another for getting those pieces? Putting such a high value on the rift will give the leadership a means of not prioritizing the two pieces that were intended to bring us to the Watcher.

Myself, and many others, have put our effort into getting the kin to this point, with no reward beyond getting us to this point, and the Watcher on the horizon. This idea is an attempt to ensure that the efforts that have brought us here, are not trumped by the inaction of the leadership that forces us to run the rift.

P.S. I will still be working to bring this kin to 6/6 with or without dkp, if you want help then please ask, and please speak up about getting them on the calendars.

Much love,
-Z

[Maie]

Falling in line with Z here:) DD and the 16th need a LM, no doubt about it. I am willing to help with this as much as i can. It has to be understood though that these runs arent the same as doing the stairs over and over again. They take a lot of time and patience. I dont know that I could do more than two runs through on one particular night. This may mean that we need to set up groups where there are 4 people who do not need the item with the plan of outfitting the two who need it or it would need to be understood and agreed upon that not everyone going in will come out with the item on that particular night.

I agree that we should go into the watcher with as many people with 6/6 as possible but I also think that the rift hope is terribly important as well. People who i have talked to, from more than one kinship that has already taken down the watcher, go with rift hope every single time. They also have at least 9 with 6/6 on each raid.

Perhaps some of the anxiety over dkp will subside after the watcher raids are open signups. Noone in the kin should feel like they are doing all the dirty work while a select few reap the benefits and Im afraid that may be happening. I have been on watcher raids and I have been out of watcher raids so I can see it from both sides of the fence, so to speak. I guess my final opinion is that pre-Moria DKP shouldnt be spendable on watcher items but DKP earned post-moria for the sole purpose of providing hope for a watcher raid should be useable.

ps...please excuse run on sentences, misspelled words and improper punctuation as i am not proofreading. lol

[Hathor]

If pre-moria dkp cant be spent on the watcher raids, then it might as well be wiped. There is nothing else in-game that dkp can be spent on... at least that i would want. With at least 2 watcher runs per week, with the new dkp spending rules, it will not be months before newer members get a chance at items. And TBH, it shouldnt matter if it does. I remember waiting forever to get the rift shoulders on Hathor! And that was when you could spend either 1 dkp or all. With the new "all or Rotation" setup, the people at the top (of the dkp list) will vanish quickly.

[Tovaxx]

My solution was simple (though drowned out when attempting to vocalize it on vent):

If you goto rift, you get first dibs on watcher spot. Simple. You are taking the time to prepare for the raid by assisting with getting the essential hope turn in. You are in large part paying due diligence to ensuring the success of the watcher raid you will be in. My problem is that while I dont mind doing the rift, I do mind falling into a rut of handing out my Sunday night to get that hope turn in and then not being able to goto the watcher with some sort of guarantee. It's like that old improv show with drew carey where he hands out imaginary points that really don't mean anything... unless of course you are just dying for a wigfeld cosmetic in this case... In the case of alts or lower level interest in the rift to actually use the gear, of course just hand the spot out. That's a freebie that I doubt will happen with much frequency.

Also if you are interested in a balanced dkp alternative for spanning expansion releases go research zero sum DKP.

[Tashrina]

I whole haertedly agree with Tham and Hath. The two should be equal DKP, don't go if you don't want to, and there should be absolutly no seperation of raid DKP or wiping of it.

Why the hell would anyone want DKP for the balrog alone? yeah if your a low 50 it might be nice to get the gear, but your gonna replace it. And that is whats happing on the rift runs weve had, low 50s and people who want the cosmetic want the gear, which means before long, no one at all will want it, at least not thats gonna use it much.

And why the hell would we want to wipe out all our hard work, shown in our DKP, just because there is new content? Its like saying, oh I know you ran this several times for the kin and yourself but who cares that you have saved everything up I'm taking it all away or effectivly making it useless, because all that matters now is the new endboss, which will eventually be replaced with another end boss, at which time all your extra work will again not matter because we will form another DKP table for the next new end boss. Retarded!

I have talked to a friend in another raid heavy kin who says they have the policy of spliting the DKP between the two, and its constant controversy, split down the middle of the kin. They are upset that their rog DKP is effectivly doing nothing while they run it so the other group can have hope, and they know if they dont run the watcher much they wont have as much of a chance at the gear because the points are seperate, even thought they run the rog continuously so that they can get their kin to go.

Also, yes there is a huge void between certain members and others on the DKP spectrum, and while it will take several runs to get even half the kin 1 piece, everyone will get there and quicker than you think. Once they get farm status down, were gonna run it twice a week, which we are already doing! And with our all or nothing system, there being two piece drops, a trophy (assuming), and possibly other items of awsome, thats at least 3 people a raid, and 6+ a week getting set back to Zer0. Thats a lot of people real quick that are going to be on the same page, and then we will end up with like 12 peeps with 6 DKP rolling for one item. On the current DKP list even though there are over 100 names, some dont run with us any more, others dont play anymore, and there are a few alts, which means that 3-4 names = 1 person, on top of which you are only competing with 11 other people at a time. Only 5 members have double digit DKP right now...FIVE!!! which once farming hits, all 5 of them will hit 0 in the first week. So why are we complaining about this void? Yes there are a few with 9's and 6's so the peeps with 1 (like me) -3 will have to wait, what? 2-3 weeks to get a piece of gear, and the big numbered people ahve to compete on equal footing with the majority of the kin for thier second piece. I don't see where the confusion is? If you want an item bad enough to complain about DKP and the gap, run everything that gives DKP or pug it and pray.


On the subject of DKP for 6 mans...NO! first of all weve all run them too many times to remember, and we run them not only for gearing out kinnies so they can raid with us, but for loot, and quests, and deeds and its only 6 people and not a huge time synce, plus there are no locks so it can be run over and over and over, so then you will have a serious DKP discrepency.

If your saying only for the sign up ones, again no, because sooo many people sign up and we always end up with extra, so it wouldnt be fair to those who didnt get picked, and it wouldnt be fair to all the past runs, suddenly giving DKP now.

Now, talking about doing it for the last two, DD & 16th, and starting sign-ups for them....I'm not against the idea of putting a sign-up for them up, maybe a night set aside so those who do want to go know when and can have people who know the run guranteed to be there. At the same time, there are several occasions in which cetain members and officers, and hyperactive teepsters are like "lets run something!" at which time the only thing that is stopping anyone is a lack of speaking up and saying hey lets do DD! In some cases people even volunteer such instances and they cant get enough people. But then sometimes they do. It does run, it has run, it still has the potiential of being run. They may need more organization, with sign-ups because of the time synce, but thats also what the forums are for:
Hey I want to run 16th! here is when Im avaliable. whos in? congratulations you just got a group!
Why no DKP....same reason, can be run often, even if its not. Not fair to those who've done it already a gillion times. its not an absolute necessity, even though the extra hope is nice in case you get your rog hope wiped. Sure 6/6 would be great, and maybe we should be making a better effort, but my understnading is many are tierd of making an effort and then not getting answered or appriciated.

Yes I will contiue to run rift so the watcher crowd can run that raid. yes I would eventually love to go on a Watcher raid, when we know what the hell were doing...I'm not a strategy former, or tactics, or whatever, I can barely tell other classes what to do in raids I've been on 3 dozen times! I don't want my rog DKP of old or new devalued or set aside, so then when I do get my chance to go on the watcher i will have nothing and that doesnt seem fair when i run the rog so peeps can run the watcher. I appriciate fully the efforts of all those who have been doing their best to figure out the watcher, handle this DKP mess, and gear out the rest of the kin to 4-6/6. There are several extreemly helpful members, leaders and non, and I'm thankful for all of them. There are some of us who have not made as much of an effort for others or ourselves, and as long as those people arent downright rufusing to ever help, if thats the way you feel and want to play, more power to ya, we cant all be leaders, there are different types of people in every family.

I love you all, my Hasties, and heres to show you even sweet little Tash can have an opinion, get P-Oed, and put her foot down. No matter the DKP outcome, I'll still be there for ya.

[Rigel]

My responses below are not an official officer view, but just my own.

I guess it all depends on what people think dkp is, is it a reward for people who give there time and energy to help the kin? Or is it a bribe to get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do? Currently we are treating it like the latter. I personally think it should be the former. The reward is for the time spent to help the kin toward the goal of defeating the watcher, regardless of what form it takes.

Currently, we are telling the kin, the rift is more important for defeating the watcher than anything else. And those who do the rift should get first dibs on all watcher gear. I mean if you do a full rift clear you get 2 dkp, when the watcher gets you 1, and forget 6 man radiance farming. Hell, the radiance gear farming is the single most important thing we can do to get people ready for the watcher, but those people don't get any loot priority in the watcher. Does that make sense? I can do absolutely nothing to help gear people in radiance and have an equal or better chance for watcher gear than people who do hours of radiance farming for others. Something isn't quite right with that.

There are many possible solutions to the problem. Some I've seen listed here. Giving more dkp for the harder runs makes some sense. There is still incentive to do both runs, because you get something, but if all you have time for is the hardest run, you have more dkp to work with than people who take the easy road.

Giving priority to watcher runs for people who do the rift is also a sound idea, though implementation would difficult, some people cant' go to the rift simply because of work restrictions. Should they be at a disadvantage because of our scheduling?

Resetting pre moria dkp would also be a good solution, at least to some issues, but I'm of the school of thought that those people spent a great deal of time helping the kin, and their points should still be valid. If we would have planned ahead and told people before moria that dkp would reset when moria came out, that would have been ideal and given everyone a chance to use their points then. Unfortunately it's too late for that.

Regardless of what solution we come up with, I think it's vital we don't forget and ignore the people who have strived so hard to get us where we are today. Some of the anger and annoyance you might see with some people is directly related to this. A key few people in the kin have put forth a huge effort to gear up the kin with radiance gear so we can go to the watcher. They did this with little support and guidance from leadership, and they did it constantly and with one goal in mind, to get to the watcher. Those people should all have our respect and gratitude. Right now it feels like many people, some who did very little to help gear up the kin, are forgetting the work that was done to get us to this point. We all need to be mindful of that hard work in every solution and idea we have now. If I had my way, those people would all have first dibs on watcher drops. Via dkp or another route. It only makes sense that the people who did all the work to get us here, should have first priority. But like some have said in this thread, it's too late for that now. All we can do now is move forward and come up with solutions that are fair to everyone.

I personally want to give my heart felt thanks to all of those people who during December and January, spent a great deal of their free time, helping gear out the kin. Without your work, we would not be where we are now. I would name names, but inevitably I'd forget someone important. You know who you are anyways.

[Teepster]

Sup Hasties,

Tash, you had me at "Hyperactive." LOL

I think that Z had a good point that is well thought out. I appreciate the fact that he clearly spent some time crafting an opinion and alternatives that are meant to improve the kin and promote fairness.

However, after reading his post and the others that followed, I ultimately agree with Tham, Hath and Tash because I believe that Rog runs are a chore and that people should be compensated for the time it takes to do it. Moreover, I think that the compensation is fair as it is currently offered.

I can see that it is a valid point that we may be paying old dues and that this may be a good time for a new rotation. However, I am of the opinion that time given to the kin for running a mind-numbing number of raids for the benefit of your kin-mates is not a debt that should be de-valued depsite its appearance of obsolescence. While some people view this DKP issues as an argument of old vs. new, I tend to frame this point in terms of the time a person invests in the kin. I value that time in equal amounts, whether the time was invested last year or last week. Time is time to me. Please note that I do not believe that my way is the right way. It is just my opinion.

The one point that Z brings up that I come back to is whether this is a crutch for 6/6. I think it is the point that gives me the most pause. I have a lot of thoughts on this point but my main response is that Rog runs are still useful despite a Raid of 6/6 and therefore I think that we should reward those that help the kin.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I WOULD RE-VISIT THIS POINT IF PEOPLE WHO CAN NOT GET ON WATCHER RAIDS ARE PUSHED OUT OF ROG RAIDS (My reservation does not include spots that are given to Officers who are leading the Rog Raids). I have an opinion on this point because I believe that if you can not participate on Watcher runs, you should have an alternate avenue to serve the kin. As Z, Maie, Mo, Cord and others have been championing, nothing is worse in a Kin than being excluded. I consider Rog runs as a way to come in from the cold if you are not selected for Watcher runs.

But, the one thing that Z brought up that I want to highlight is that I would like to seek a way to expand farming to DD or 16th. As Tash and others have noted, I am "hyperactive" and always down to run anything for you guys. And, I think that these instances are not only fun but can be totally pwned once more of us learn our way around. The bottom line is that I believe that there are members who want to see this content and, for the time being, we need officers to provide access since they are the ones with the most experience with it.

(I will withdraw the point above if I am wrong and Kin just do not care about running DD and 16th)

Anyway, I think it is awesome that we all care enough to spend time to comment on ways to improve our kin. While it is clear that we do not agree with each other every time, we clearly respect each other all the time. And that is clearly Hasty.

Much Respect to the Hasties,

Teepster Runekeepster
Keepsting It Real

[Tovaxx]

I was just pondering on the relatively recent discussion about dkp (again) and after evaluating the nuances it dawned on me that I had seen this before. There is a system called RDKP which may solve alot of the concerns being expressed and keep everyone happy now, and in the future. If an officer has a chance to take a look let me know, I found this old link but am sure there are more available.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Relational_DKP

[Bobion]

Great posts, everyone. I always love ideas and collaborative interests! I read this thread this afternoon and thought about it a lot all day.

On the note of Rift vs Watcher DKP rewards, I'll be the first to say it was a little boneheaded! Past content should never be worth more tha current content. As it stands, we are in our Expedition Phase of the Watcher (I don't predict we'll be there long, Hasties are awesome!) which leads us to be very careful and playing with high security. The Rift is there for that security with its turnin, and since there is nothing to be gained out of it (quests, deeds, cool drops, class quests, xp, reputation, item xp, you get the idea) but a ginormous loss of time, to make sure we all appreciate everyone's efforts, we inserted DKP. The purpose of DKP for the Balrog kill (seperate from the fullclear) was that we're getting into the habit of pulling in alts to take our own locks (or occassionally borrowing them from another kin) for a seperate run, and that's done on a seperate day, and the immediate response was to reward that as well. That may've been a little speedily thought out, since our Officer Meeting that night was a bit rushed because we had farming runs that night. In all honesty, I admit the concept of "2 vs 1!" didn't even enter my mind. With the points raised, I do not believe it can be very valid. A full three hours is definitely worth the DKP (better than nothing!), but a small 30m-or-less kill shouldn't add an additional DKP when the consideration of the Watcher only being one is in the picture (if this wasn't the case, things would be different). We even agreed to not schedule seperated kills anyway, so DKP for it is not a valid option. Thanks for calling us on it - we're not perfect! :)

On the note of Sixmans and DKP, I think Tash addressed up the biggest warning sign on that issue: It has no Locks! Without Locks it's easily farmable and offers a large, open field of discrepency that has far too many holes in it to bother handling. In all truth, I would love for DKP for Sixmans - in fact, back in Shadows of Angmar, I pushed for it several times. However, inferior loot, no Locks, and relative simplicity of difficulty and of effort to construct a working group, it simply wasn't really an option. Raids are on the calendar for their fantastic, much-desired loot, Locks interfering with regularity on that loot, and more challenging content with a lot more structure and discipline necessary to succeed. On these bases alone, I think that Sixmans for DKP is a very dangerous sinking hole to step into. I understand that Radiance gear is not Berghelm, or Elder's Staff, or Forvengwath's Despair, and I never want to be so closed-minded to ignore something I may not be seeing, but I really don't feel that Sixmans are still an option for DKP. I am not closing the door on the option, but I'm rather strongly against it. Input here is recommended if you have any. :)

As for 16th/DD on the calendar, it seems like that day crept up on us sooner than I thought (which only goes to show how awesome this kinship is). Both instances require a much higher level of focus, playability, experience and skill, as well as the biggest factor for impeding farming: time! Unlike Fil, or Skumfil, or GS and even Forges, 16th and DD take a lot of time to get just one piece, especially 16th. To boot, the loot isn't that fantastic to encourage others to come back (DD has a nice piece or two, but they're purple :(), though the Heritage Runes (Item XP!) are rather nice. For these reasons alone I have been and currently am hesitant to put them on the calendar, and rather reserve them for forum coordinations or just /k coordinations. I am not oppossed to putting them on the calendar, however, and have been thinking about it a lot over the past week and a half or so. Perhaps replacing one of our farm days for 16th/DD, and have our other be any two of the other four? Please remember we also don't want to have too many things going on and burn ourselves out!

DKP resetting I think is a bad idea. We have always been big on keeping records and not forgetting anyone, and DKP is our primary focus in that area. There are some with two digit DKPs, and to have that wasted (two digits (10) is already 30 hours of Rifting, let alone more than ten!) is unfair.

Guys and gals, I just want to say I really like seeing a hot thread jumping on our forum, and to hear opinions from everyone. It's always a big help to hear the Member side of the story, and it's really cool to see everyone treating each other with respect and fairness - nothing short of what being in this kinship is about. Keep it up! /salute

[Zaire]

It has been 3 weeks since our first Watcher run guys, and it has me wondering, "How many more people are at 6/6 now than when we started?" I know a some have been working on it, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, but those of you that havn't been doing everything you can to get your final two pieces, what are you waiting for? I had no problem using the rift as a crutch to get this Watcher raid started, and rewarding those that enabled us, but are those rewards still necessary (should we give dkp for the Rift)?

So as it stands, or may stand, you get 1 dkp for doing the rift; but then why are we doing the rift? Because you havn't put the effort into getting your 6 peices, (I mean we have people gearing out alts before we have people getting their 6 pieces). So you are getting rewarded for not doing the prerquisites of the watcher, while those that have done the work, and have gotten themselves to 6/6 get screwed by not running the Rift (and not getting the dkp), or having to sink their time into it (just to gain dkp). I don't need to run the Rift, because I have done the work, I have helped to ensure that many people don't need to either, and we didn't need a dkp to do it. I didn't wait for Kin to hand deliver my pieces, and I did more than just ask if we were going to do it, I made it happen just as many others that have their 6/6 (Yes that includes many pugs).

Everyone should do the work to get theirselve there, whether that means running the 6 mans or running the Rift, but shouldn't expect a dkp advantage for taking one route over the other.

[Maie]

I am approaching this post cautiously because I understand that people are taking these issues to heart. I'm one of them. If the watcher had not been downed on Wednesday night when I went, but was on Thursday when I wasn't in the raid, I would have been crushed. I've done a lot of 6man's and prep-work to get to the watcher, as have many of us. I think that work was rewarded to me not by a first age legendary or a +20 radience piece but the satisfaction of knowing I was in on the Hasties watcher kill. Now that the watcher raid has been successfully completed and we are getting ready to move into scheduled, open sign-up watcher raids where DKP is being given, different issues have come up. 4/6? 6/6? Rift hope necessary? Lots of possibilities here as I see it.

I think preferably you would take 12 people with 6/6 radience gear into the watcher raid. I think thats the way the game was set up, its what developers figured would happen. Of course, you can go with 4/6 but you must have hope from the rift in order to do this. I believe if you are at 4/6 and want to do the watcher raid, you must be in on the rift run to gather your own hope. I don't think you should get double DKP because you have fewer gear pieces though. That doesn't seem fair. If you have 6/6 and go to do the rift in order to help out those who only have 4/6 then you should be rewarded with the extra DKP.

Alts with gear...different topic:) I've had 6/6 on Maie for a while now. I've continued to do 6man instances to help others get their gear, and I will continue to do so. What I won't do is leave my other level 60 behind and not get her geared out too because I already have my main with 6/6. If this means I have to pug it or set up my own groups within the kin then I will do that too. I think the more alts we have with 6/6 the better chance we have of taking down the watcher multiple times in one week. We are as strong of a kin as any other on Arkenstone and can do this if we put our minds too it and work as a kin instead of selfish individuals.

[Hathor]

It has been 3 weeks since our first Watcher run guys, and it has me wondering, "How many more people are at 6/6 now than when we started?" I know a some have been working on it, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, but those of you that havn't been doing everything you can to get your final two pieces, what are you waiting for? I had no problem using the rift as a crutch to get this Watcher raid started, and rewarding those that enabled us, but are those rewards still necessary (should we give dkp for the Rift)?

So as it stands, or may stand, you get 1 dkp for doing the rift; but then why are we doing the rift? Because you havn't put the effort into getting your 6 peices, (I mean we have people gearing out alts before we have people getting their 6 pieces). So you are getting rewarded for not doing the prerquisites of the watcher, while those that have done the work, and have gotten themselves to 6/6 get screwed by not running the Rift (and not getting the dkp), or having to sink their time into it (just to gain dkp). I don't need to run the Rift, because I have done the work, I have helped to ensure that many people don't need to either, and we didn't need a dkp to do it. I didn't wait for Kin to hand deliver my pieces, and I did more than just ask if we were going to do it, I made it happen just as many others that have their 6/6 (Yes that includes many pugs).

Everyone should do the work to get theirselve there, whether that means running the 6 mans or running the Rift, but shouldn't expect a dkp advantage for taking one route over the other.

Sounds like your calling us thqt arent 6/6 lazy because we dont have 6/6. How long did it take you to get to lvl 60? How many hours do you work a week? How early do you have to be to work in the morning? When MoM launched, did you lvl your one and only toon, or did you switch when the call for more minstrels went out? Just because everyone's not as 1337 as you, doesnt mean theyre slackers.

I play when i can... if i could i would raid every night dkp or none. The officers that know me, know this. Dont put down your kin-mates.

[Rigel]

Like Maie said, there is value in going the route of the rift or having 6/6. Currently, many kinmates do not have 6/6, either because they don't pug, or haven't been able to go to 16th and DD due to lack of support within the kin, or simply just bad luck. Regardless, I think pursuing both tracks is a valid course of action.

Ideally the whole kin would be 6/6 so the rift will not be necessary, and maybe we'll get there someday, but in the meantime, if we want to go to the watcher as often as possible, we will need the rift hope. So the question becomes, how do we award dkp for an outdated raid that is still necessary vs the current raid.

It's already been said that the rift should not give more dkp than the watcher, so that is the issue that needs to be dealt with, how should dkp be handed out in a fair way? I think 2 dkp for watcher, 1 for rift makes sense. Those who go help with the rift get something towards their dkp pool, while those who actually go to the watcher get more points toward watcher drops. Some people will go to both and get the max dkp possible, some people don't have time to devote to that many raids though, and need to focus on the current raid.

As for the point Maie brings up regarding alts, I think she has brought up a valid issue. Some of us who have been more active in the kin, for whatever reason, already have 6/6 and also have alts we would also like to gear out. At some point, probably sooner rather than later, we'll probably open up spots for alts in the radiance gear loot runs, but it's very important to remember that mains come first. And rightly so, some people don't have the time to put into the game as others, and are still missing radiance gear for their main, we should never have a situation where one player gets his 2nd or 3rd piece set of radiance boots when another player in the same group hasn't gotten it for their main. Of course, once all the mains in a particular farming group gets that piece, then the group can continue to farm for alts if everyone agrees.

In the meantime, the best way to get radiance gear is to form groups outside of official calendar runs. Which for a few of us, is exactly how we did it before calendar farming runs were an option. As someone who has many alts, I'll be right there with you creating groups for alts in the not too distant future.

[Bobion]

Rigel's right on a very key point:

The best way to get the pieces is to go to the sixmans outside the calendar.

The sixmans were put on the calendar with the intention of a "guaranteed sixman run" for that week, to ensure that SOMEONE gets a piece so we have a steady inflow to help everyone raid, and not necessarily there for efficient gearing. The bottom line is that thanks to no locks, they can be spam-ran easily, allowing for fast runs. The Rift runs are there just for security, and the sixmans that are on the calendar are just a scheduled run. To get it done fastest, running outside the calendar is best.

We'll probably always (within reason) have sixman runs on the calendar for new people who join and want the Watcher, or alts, or whatever, whether they fill out or not.

Admittedly, I kinda went, '...huh.' when Maie mentioned that only people with 6/6 can get DKP on the Rift. I kinda like the train of thought there.

Discuss!

[Rook]

Is there DKP being rewarded for the Rift?

The only reason to do the Rift is to get the stack able hope, the only reason to get the stack able hope is for the people who do not have 6/6.

It would seem more beneficial to everyone if you gave out DKP for running DD and 16th for peoples mains than for the Rift or not give DKP at all for the Rift or just get rid of DKP for the Watcher or make the DKP spendable only on the first age weapon. Heck the Watcher encounter is really easy once people figure out the few hairy moments in there.

There are a lot of people without 6/6. By using the Rift hope you are giving people without 6/6 a way to continue going and not giving the people with 6/6 any boost for completing the work needed to get ready for the Watcher. So in essence it seems more beneficial to not put in the work of getting 6/6 and ride on the coat tails of others.

I'm not trying to be mean but by continuing to give a crutch for the people who don't have 6/6 I don't think is very helpful in the long run. Especially if people with 6/6 are passed on for the raids because someone without 6/6 is going. It's a slap in the face to the people who decided to get the work done for the Watcher.

[Dilmor]

Except that not being 6/6 (which is a term that bugs me - you're 4/6 + 2 unless you've got both pieces from the watcher) is not an indication of how much work you've put in. Unless you've got the same 6 people running all the time you can and do have people who've run those instances many times without getting the piece. It's exacerbated by the fact that some people bring alts to fill out an otherwise lacking group and don't get to get the piece they need on their main.

Also, the prevailing attitude amongst the leadership of the kin has been that 4/6 was what we were requiring for the watcher. That was the kin's goal. The idea was that 16th and DD weren't worth running for radiance because those pieces would be replaced by Watcher drops. I personally don't use my extra radiance stuff past 4/6 because it's not as good at the purple drops unless you NEED the hope. I think that attitude is changing, but that's the way it's been.

I could be convinced that 1 dkp for a night of scheduled farming is ok, but only that. The last thing I want to see is someone who can play all day run DD 8 times and be at the top of the DKP list multiple raids in a row.

Personally, I'd like to get to the point where we don't run the rift unless we just get a hankering to go in an rip that place up.

[Tashrina]

Admittedly, I kinda went, '...huh.' when Maie mentioned that only people with 6/6 can get DKP on the Rift. I kinda like the train of thought there.

Discuss!

I went hmm as well, it made me think and I like it for the most part. The foreseeable problem that I have with this idea though is what happens to the people who go to the Rift, that do not have 6/6 and can't or don't want to go to the Watcher, but can and do go to the Rift so that others can go to the Watcher? So we are saying thanks for the help, I know your not gonna be going to the Watcher and you don't need this but your not going to get rewarded for helping us because you havn't geared yourself up fully for the run you won't be going on anytime soon.

...admitedly I don't really know of anyone who has absolutly no desire to go so my point is probobly moot. However, scheduling makes it slightly less improboble of a case. We tend to run raids on Thursday and Sunday...I for one can't commit to Thurs, and don't like to comit to Sun because its the start of the work week, and end of the weekend, so I'm feeling very non-commital on those days. But what if I can get in on say a Mon night rift to help, like I did a couple weeks ago when they needed an LM. I don't have 6/6 yet. I also havn't even signed up for any Watcher Raid on the calendar because I can't make them, or didn't want to throw myself into an expedition. So those with 6/6 get DKP for helping the kin, but I don't even though I'm helping? Kinda seems off.

Now I'm not trying to make this into a big deal, It's just something to think about from another point of view. weather or not I get DKP for the Rift, if its on a night Im avaliable, especially if you need me, I will probobly go to help the kin, and for the fun of running with such a kin group. But also if our Watcher is set for Sun/Thurs, don't expect me to be there anytime soon. I might be around on Sundays for backup, but I'm not gonna sign up in advance if I don't know my status. No, this doesn't really upset me that I'm not getting in anytime soon.

On another note, many people are saying they don't have the time to play like many of the 6/6 people do, which is why they don't have 6/6 yet. This is very valid. I am one of the people who had bukos of time when Moria came out, and I'm not too restricted now either, though I probobly should be. I don't have 6/6. Hell I didnt have 4/6 till last week. Why? 1) I don't play as hard, I tend to be somewhat relaxed. 2) I focused on crafting. 3) I wanted to try new classes. 4) I have multiple toons and sometimes I just wasn't in the mood for Tash. 5) I never really cared enough to be "ready" for the Watcher that I knew I wasn't going to be going on anytime soon. I've had opportunities for lots of runs, most of which I haven't taken, mainly due to being involved in something else (I like advance notice), or because someone who was more excited wanted in so I let them go in my place. More often than not I tend to hang back and see if the group really needs me, I like to help others, I don't always care so much about myself. Case in point: rigel organized my first Forges foray so I could get my class quest done, which I didn't even ask him to do, because he knew I had done nothing but 1 grand stair run ever. I also don't like to take charge when I don't know whats going on.

My point being not only do some not have time, or scheduling conflicts, but some of us prefer advanced notice, and some of us just don't care as deeply and vehemently as others. I'm not saying I don't respect those who got to 6/6, or who have been working their asses off to get everyone else there. I respect them and appriciate them and believe we have excelent leadership within the kin. I'm saying I'll get there, just don't expect everyone to get there as fast (or slow) as you did, we aren't all capable or willing, so stop harping on us.

If you make it a rule that you need 6/6 to go or you need to aquire the hope some other way, possibly without the kins help, I will fully support you on this, beacue I do see the validity in that. But as I've said before, I love this kin, and I will stand by it come hell or high water.

[Rook]

So there should be rewards for doing Rift because people don't want or can't do DD and 16th?

I'm not asking for DKP for farming but that DKP not be awarded for the Rift unless DKP would be rewarded for DD and 16th since you need one of those to be able to do the Watcher fight.

The idea of DKP is good for large encounters and/or time sinks, since it is a system to reward people to go on these encounters and to keep going. The Watcher fight isn't a time sink or a large encounter. So the giving of a reward for one aspect of being able to do the Watcher fight but not give it for another avenue is a bit ridicules.

You have to have radiance to do the encounter. It doesn't matter if the stats suck or are great to you, you still need the extra radiance. If you are not rewarded for getting the pieces out of DD and 16th you should not be rewarded for getting the Rift hope.

[Rigel]

So there should be rewards for doing Rift because people don't want or can't do DD and 16th?

I'm not asking for DKP for farming but that DKP not be awarded for the Rift unless DKP would be rewarded for DD and 16th since you need one of those to be able to do the Watcher fight.

The idea of DKP is good for large encounters and/or time sinks, since it is a system to reward people to go on these encounters and to keep going. The Watcher fight isn't a time sink or a large encounter. So the giving of a reward for one aspect of being able to do the Watcher fight but not give it for another avenue is a bit ridicules.

You have to have radiance to do the encounter. It doesn't matter if the stats suck or are great to you, you still need the extra radiance. If you are not rewarded for getting the pieces out of DD and 16th you should not be rewarded for getting the Rift hope.

I've been making this argument for some time now Rook. Especially with the recent decision to give 1 dkp for a 30 minute balrog run, which has thankfully been reversed. I have argued that radiance farming runs should give 1 dkp as well. Farming runs should give dkp, because they help gear out the kin to hit the watcher. It should not be given on any pickup group made throughout the day in kin. It's too hard to track each of those, and due to the lack of locks, giving dkp each time would open up the system to abuse. I think only the official calendar farming runs should give dkp. And just 1 dkp per night, not per run.

Again though, other people disagree that the kin spending their time gearing out others is worthy of dkp. A counter argument has been made that since you can pug those instances, no dkp should be given. I think that argument is hollow, the simple fact is we are rewarding people in some places and not others for doing almost the same thing. It's a 6man vs 12man bias I've never understood.

Regardless, the way it currently stands, a full rift clear gives 1 dkp, which I'm ok with. Spending that much time with little return should be rewarded. Simply killing the Balrog won't be worth 1 dkp, that decision was reversed. It's just too easy to do. Farming runs currently will not give dkp. Though I think this is silly, I'm outvoted on this issue. The watcher will be worth 1 or 2 dkp. The amount is still up to debate, I think the current higher level raids should be worth more than old lower level ones.

I 100% agree that everyone should make an effort to gear up 6/6 or 4/6 +2, however you want to put it. The rift hope is a crutch, nothing more, to help people who have not gotten 6/6 be able to go into the watcher raid. It's tempting to say you have to be 6/6 to get into a watcher raid at all. It is in some ways unfair to those of us who have worked very hard to get 6/6, that others who either can't or won't spend the time to get the final two pieces of radiance gear, get an equal chance to go on the watcher raid. BUT, it's also understandable that DD and 16th aren't as easy as the other instances, so a little slack has to be given to people who don't have the full instance gear yet. As a kin, we need to push to get every main 6/6. That has been my goal from the beginning, and we have come a long way in that respect. I'm happy to say that we will finally start seeing 16th/DD on the calendars. There are some up there now. Hopefully those runs and non calendar runs will make the need for the rift hope rare, if not obsolete.

Everyone will not be happy with whatever system we put into place, we just have to try to make the best system possible and hope people will adjust to it.

[Ausar]

4/6+2 is not the "right" way, and balrog hope is not cheating, or lazy, or wrong. They're both ways to get hope that is necessary to survive the Watcher encounter, nothing more, nothing less. You can talk about people not "wanting to put in the work" in 16th, or DD, but they could turn right around and talk about you not wanting to put in the work to keep running the balrog. They're both work. They're both content. The balrog is pretty much useless, except for the hope that drops. 16th is also pretty much useless, except for the shoulders. Its also long and tedious. Have you crunched the numbers and figured out which route takes longer? You can call 'rog hope a crutch as much as you want, but the patch pieces are also a crutch. A 2/3rds smaller, more permanent crutch. Sorry, but there's no moral high ground on this one, only personal preference. You can go on about being unfair to the 4/6+2 folks, but nobody twisted your arm to force you into those groups. It's noble to want to help out your kin, and get us as raid-ready as possible, but if you require some consideration for your efforts, maybe you should've made sure the kin had your back before running off to crucify yourself on the tedium of 16th and the difficulty of DD.

As to giving DKP for rad farming, do you really want to open up that particular can of worms? We already have enough problems with people contending for spots in raids and official runs. We already have enough issues with people's schedules. We already have enough concern over DKP. Do you really want to incentivize people to hold off on lending a hand until the kin leadership is watching and holding out DKP? Do you really want to discourage people from forming pickup groups? Will we need strict rules about how far in advance you post a farm night before it can count for DKP? Plus if you need radiance to raid, and we were to reward radiance farming with DKP, do we have to start rewarding all raid-furthering activities with DKP? I mean, if I form a pickup group to get a few people their Skumfil coin, am I less deserving of reward than the guy who can predict his schedule a week in advance, and set up a scheduled run? Plus, that guy might easily pick the busiest night so he can get his 1 DKP for "one night", so that he can blow through it as quickly as possible. What if I give a lifetime supply of hope tokens? I mean, we give DKP for the balrog, and you want to give DKP for 16th and DD, so why not give DKP for tossing a vault full of tokens? They give hope, too. What if I throw in a chunk of gold to buy pots? Pots are necessary sometimes too. What if I help farm Insidious Cuffs and Diamond Studs for the kin's meleers? You need good gear to raid. Or what if I help level an alt minstrel? Minstrels need levels in order to raid, so I'm helping the kin get raid-ready too. Pretty much anything worth doing in LOTRO somehow contributes to making someone better prepared for a raid, so why should we draw the line at radiance gear? Plus, it introduces a new route to DKP, one which is not hindered by locks. It invites gamesmanship, and disadvantages casual players even more.

Rook is right about riding coattails: either everyone should be aimed at 4/6+2, or nobody should (unless they really want to, and it's not just for raiding). Unfortunately, we've gotten some very mixed signals about what it is we're aiming for, and this results in inefficiency and confusion, which will undoubtedly make the final outcome feel unfair to one group or another. This should've been decided quickly, and solidly one way or the other. Months ago, not 3 days ago.