Just a ?

[Maie]

Many of us do have the 4 of 6 deemed necessary for a Watcher attempt. That said, on the nights that runs are set up, what should we do really? I don't know if I should put myself available for specific runs or on the 'available' list. It has seemed like many of us are ready to do the runs for the last two of the set or to take alts in. Seems we are getting to the point where we should start taking lvl 60 alts into the first runs, GS-FG etc. Don't want to be a trouble maker, just want to see what anyone else thinks. Thanks:)

[Teepster]

I think that Maie has a good point in that once the Watcher raid is set, we may have a lot of talent available that evening. But, the question I am asking myself is whether we should stay open to provide a deep bench for the Watcher raid in case of dropouts, connection loss, RL and shiny things that may divert us on the way to the raid.

For now, I look at Watcher night as something that we can all support by either participating or just making ourselves available so that there is one less thing to worry about in our exploration of this fight.

Anyway, Maie raises a good point of consideration that I am curious about as well. And, if we are not asked to remain as backup, I am always available for anything.

Teep

[Tovaxx]

sign me up for DD ;)

[Dilmor]

I think Maie's question is largely: Are we at the point where we can/should start gearing out alts with radiance gear?

OR should we start focusing on DD/16th to get people closer to 6/6 BEFORE the watcher.

[Rigel]

The main reason for the farming runs is to equip out the mains in the kin with the radiance gear to get them and the kin ready for watcher runs. Specifically they are supposed to help those in the kin who are unable to get into groups normally on their own throughout the week. There is no reason why alts can't go on these runs if they help fill out the group to make it successful, but the mains will still get priority on the drops. That being said the majority of the kin probably now has most if not all of the first 4 pieces of the radiance gear. If on the nights of the farming runs, nobody needs to do the specific runs listed, then there is nothing stopping those who are on to make alternate plans. If those online want to start equipping out alts, then that's fine, but again, mains should get priority, and if we have just 1 person who needs something, then the kin as a whole should help with that. The more mains we have that are watcher ready the better, we could conceivably have enough people to do 2 watcher raids a week, not including alts.

The idea of putting 16th and Dark Delving on the calendar has been brought up and discussed quite a bit. Simply put, these 2 instances are much too difficult to just throw a group together and be successful. I have tried to throw groups together and do these, but almost always they end in failure and frustration. The only way these instances can be done succesfully and regularly is to have a preset group of people who have done it and know it, and fill the remainder of the group with 1 or 2 people who aren't familiar with it and need the gear.

Both instances require a set makeup to succeed as well, though I'm sure there are variations to the strategies, the one that has worked best for us has several key positions that must be present (lm, minstrel, captain etc.). We are currently lacking depth of toons with some of these key classes.

Also, both instances do not drop radiance gear for the sets, they drop place holder gear which will be replaced as soon as you get the set gear in the watcher. Granted the radiance they give will give an advantage in the watcher, or a possibly advantage, but the gear in these 2 instances is not the same as the other 4.

And 16th hall is by far the most annoying, lengthy and least rewarding of any of the 6 radiance instances. DD is by far the most difficult of the 6 instances.

Given these reason, the requirement of 4 to 5 experienced people to succeed, the need for specific classes, the length of time for the instances and the temporary nature of the radiance pieces they drop, it just doesn't make sense to put these on the calendar. What would happen is you would get a group of 6 people which is not ideal, and you would wipe repeatedly and everyone would have high repair bills and low rewards for the trouble.

What I've been trying to do, slowly but surely, is get a group together almost nightly, and help gear out those that are in the exploration group with those last 2 set pieces. It is a slow process where a successful night will give 2 people shoulders from the 16th after 3 hours of time spent, or 2 to 3 people will get the helmet after 3 hours in dd. But slowly we are building a core group of players who are familiar with both instances and who can go out and complete them. Eventually, hopefully soon, those who have done these instances successfully can help others get the gear. Though it does seem that if I don't put the group together, they don't get formed, which is disheartening to say the least. It was very encouraging to see the 16th group form the other night, though unfortunately it was not successful. I encourage all players who have done these instances successfully to make a large effort to run these with others.

What I can try to do is put down the strategy and group make ups that have been highly successful for us so far, hopefully that will help.

As a disclaimer, none of the above post is officialy officer policy, they are just my opinions. But to summarize, I think our priorities should be as follows:

1. Equip mains with the main set pieces of radiance gear.
2. Equip mains with the non set pieces of radiance gear.
3. Equip alts with radiance gear.

[Maie]

1. Equip mains with the main set pieces of radiance gear.
2. Equip mains with the non set pieces of radiance gear.
3. Equip alts with radiance gear.

I agree with this. In fact, I think its a great plan:) However, and I hate to speak for others, but I am going to do it anyway. There does seem to be some feeling of being left out amongst some kin members. Some are feeling that they are being left to run the forges over and over and over again without being given the option to run the more difficult of the instances. I, for one, love this game for the challenge of it. If an instance bothers me until I want to yell at the monitor, I like that instance the best. I would rather take 6 into the DD and fail miserably until we get it right than run the same instance multiple flawless times. Maybe that's just me. I am going to just put myself on the available list for gear run nights and go wherever if I am needed.

[Rigel]

I know what you mean Maie and I agree to a point, we have a lot of people who are done with the main 4 instances and want to do something more, but without a lm or captain both 16th and dd are doomed for failure. So unless you and/or Z are available, neither instance can be done. Same with captains, you basically have stan and togarrg at this point, and my alt. If you don't have both a lm and a cap, again both instances are almost a guaranteed failure. I'm all for a challenge, but I've done the challenge of 16th and DD many times and some groups just won't work there. It isn't a matter of throwing a random group together and just hitting it until you win. Some group makeups are just not going to be able to. Many are not able to in fact. I want everyone in the kin to be able to go in these place, and I want them to succeed.

From my perspective, I try to do these runs as often as I can, and have done so. So I'm not sure what more I can do. It's simply a matter of availability, to do the instances and have a chance, you need key people to both be on and available. And when that happens, I almost always get one of those 2 runs going. If other people want to try the other instances, then what's stopping them? Do they need a scheduled calendar run to go? From what I've seen that hasn't stopped people from doing other instances. So I guess the real question is, why am I one of the only ones who tries to put these groups together? What is holding people back from going on their own? I've seen very few attempts by people to get 16th or dd runs going, and when I have seen them, they don't seem to work out so well. Either 1 or 2 people are interested and noone else in the kin responds to their requests for help, or a group gets together and wipes alot.

So do we need these instances on the calendar to get them going? Or do we just need more people in the kin to step up and get groups going? Either way, if you go in without at least the correct core group of players, you are just going to end up with repair bills and nothing else. I have lost a great deal of gold finding that out.

I'm open to suggestions and ideas.

[Elricord]

Ok, I can understand that we are limited on certain classes thats why I belive we need an alt day to be able to atleast get are alts to 4/6 or 6/6 since some of our alts are the classes we are short on. This way we can cover our assests we running these cause I bet running FG or GS with my captn would be alot differnt then my tank It will also help our us understanding how to group with our alts.


On the subject of running dd or the 16th. I think we should have sign ups for these and with the knowlege that they might not be ran if the right make up isn't signed up. I think it will help the whole kin if we are able to run these. Cause Lan might be able to run these with his eyes closed but that does help me and koon and the other Guards cause we dont have a chance to run it with Haste.

[Rigel]

Well, I don't really think we need an alt day, we just need people with high level alts to be able to be geared up on the existing farming days we have. I think this is a good idea, and will help with the deficit of captain and lm. But we just have to keep in mind that mains have priority, and the group needs to be balanced. If everyone comes on their hunter alt, then 5 hunters and a min is not a win group. This is something I'll bring up at the next officers meeting.

As for not having a chance to run things with haste, specifically dd and 16th, that is partially true. Often times lan will say when we start those runs, that he would prefer a guard who hasn't been there do it, or a guard who needs it. Just happens that there isn't always an available guard when we go. We have done DD several times with no guards at all. But that is something to keep in mind, we have to balance the ability of the group to be successful with letting more Hasties be able to enter them. I think this is doable. But again, we can't just go in with 1 person who knows it and 5 people who don't. At least that isn't something I'd like to do. It just isn't fun, and it is a recipe for disaster, a mix of knowledgeable and new needs to made. I'll also bring up this issue at the next officer meeting and see if we can come up with a solution that helps everyone.

[Teepster]

Maie,

If you ever feel like your need for change and adventure is greater than your dread at going broke on repair costs, give me a call. I am always down for rolling the dice and facing the odds. As long as we are not taking away from kin events, you can always count on me if you want to face DD or 16th.

My experience with those instances are nil but then, I am a Hastey dammit. Logic and Reason do not apply to me.

But, anyone who goes should be forewarned that whiners and poverty stricken adventurers are discouraged. You must be ready to laugh in the face of desctruction (of your gear).

Teepster

[Illandrae]

I think Rigel has amply provided all details on these points as I see them. Just a few points to reiterate and expand on so I too can be involved in this thread.

On the subject of DD/16th runs. You wanna run it have fun. If I can be of service and got nothing going count me in. However, please remember that the potential hours of beating ones head against the desk as you run up a 1g+ repair bill might supply one or two members of your team with a piece of gear that in 1-2 months time you will vendor or bank permenently. These pieces are NOT top tier gear. In some cases they are not even better than alternative choices from the purple sets. Both are completely inferior to the watcher set pieces. This to me is the primary reason I would not push to have either of them be organized kinship runs on set calander dates. In the case of 16th, there are few if any top tier items that drop at all. Making the run not only long and sometimes boring, but also offering little reward for those that arent after the temporary raidence piece.

That being said, If we find somehow that the watcher strat requires a 5th or 6th piece of gear for some wierd reason which is not mathmatically expected. I would jump on the bandwagon of lets farm the hell out of DD and 16th.

On the subject of Alts. This kin has always benefited from it's depth of alts within some of our members. Our two balrog runs per week in SoA would not have been possible without alts. I believe this kin has every intention of taking care of a players alts as well as their main. However, the watcher can not be completed by 10 players two of which are playing two toons. We have all reached the end game of MoM at our own paces. Some of us are very anxious and prepared for the watcher runs, some of us for whatever reason are just recently hitting 60 or starting the path to preparing for said watcher. There is an inherant psychological element to gearing an alt. Joe Player feels we are doing him a disservice in helping an alt gear up before his main has had an opportunity to get the pieces. We need to show that we care about all of our main members not just those that have been fast tracking their way into watcher preparation. Also, from the perspective of someone who also has 60 alts that I'd love to gear. Some of us have been burning these instances hard and long in service to the kin and it's raid preparation. I personally welcome the idea of not having to hit a 6-man every night of the week. When we open pandora's box (and perhaps it will be soon) and start gearing out peoples alts there becomes a fresh set of faces that need to get geared up. I for one do not dislike the idea of having a brief respite from the constant repetition of these gear runs on a nightly basis. A slower pace because our mains are relatively well geared appeals to me greatly. A few nights a week where i can just kick it or help lower level toons. This grind getting mains ready for the watcher has been both fun and tediously repetative. I'm not particularly excited about continuing this pace to allow all lvl 60 alts to gear up. I know this process will occur but it sure would be nice if we could find a way to do so in a more casual fashion as everyone should hopefully be focused on hitting the watcher in their primary main class.

Again, as disclaimer these are the unfiltered words of an individual officer and not the kinship itself in anyway. I dont claim to be elloquent or particularly tactful and hope this response is not offensive.

[Tovaxx]

The most poignant facts that I can pull from this are the following:

1) People are discontent with simply farming the same old same old constantly and being expected to sit idly by and watch a group of generally the same people heading out and hitting up the more challenging/untested content.

2) We are seeing that there are a number of reasons being expressed as to why these more challenging instances should not be faced.
------->They require a specific set of classes which we are in short supply of: Simple solution, active recruiting. I know we are far from a closed door kinship in the recruiting department. Likewise we are also only gaining new recruits based on reputation. That is to say that we do not actively attempt to recruit specific classes that we have vacancies or clear need for. It has been my experience that these situations do not simply rectify themselves, you have to express and advertise that we are looking for these classes (hence active recruiting).

------->The goal is to get set pieces rather than an item that will be rapidly replaced/vendored: To me this seems like a blatant cop out. Quite frankly the experience is not about getting gear, it is about having the experience. Personally I play the game to see content, and while I am not opposed to assisting people I do also strongly believe it should be reciprocal. Gear is in fact a side effect of this mantra, not the primary objective. Alot of people enjoy difficult content, the notion of an "expedition team" is in fact condescending if you step outside your shoes and perceive it objectively. i can understand on a 12 man one or two runs to get it down, but limiting access to 6 mans is absolutely asinine. At least toss up some dates on the calendar as a tool to help facilitate what is a blatantly clear desire of at least a notable portion of our membership. I really do not understand the basis behind any resistance to this notion. Beyond that, it is worth considering that the same people expressing discontent are likely the ones that have had little to no exposure to DD/16th. These are also likely the individuals not traditionally considered as 1st or even 2nd string assets to an "expedition" team. Throw them a bone.

3) My take: While the causes and motivations for our current direction may be served on the platter of good intention, they clearly are not serving the active and present interests of the kinship as a whole. Maie is one of more than a (growing) handful of kinmates that have expressed discontent or more simply a desire to see something more. While I do not mean to stir up trouble, I will at least bring it outward and put it on the table. Approaching the present situation and finding a solution or providing more solid reasoning is a much more favorable long-term answer than continuing to allow the membership to be unhappy with their gameplay experience; or in the worst case scenario, to allow our numbers to continue to slowly trickle out due to people going afk bc the timesink is simply not worth it, or worst, losing them from our ranks altogether.

[Rigel]

Again I'll bring up these issues at the next officers meeting, and hopefully come to some agreement on what we can do.

[Bobion]

I've read this thread and am not ignoring it, but this cold I have, my internet being absolutely whacky (yay fixed!) and a number of unfortunate happenstances prevented me from getting a good reply on it. Thankfully those issues are mostly resolved. That said, I love to see feedback from the kin on stuff like this, and everything is a work in progress in a game that is constantly changing, so feedback is great so we can make it fun for everyone. 8)

I'd like to first state that the sixman runs we have on the calendar are specifically for the acquiring of Radiance gear in prep for the Watcher. Haste has never been big on sixmans on the calendar, as we've never felt that that level of effort and coordination is necessary for a sixman. The reason raids are on the calendar is because there are enough people and loot is good enough that it's highly desired, so a level of organization is necessary. Moria's sixmans force us into a corner of needing that same level of organization on the smaller scale of sixmans because the gear from them is necessary to tackle the Watcher. I think it's kind of a lame execution, but, what can ya do.

That said, that's the only reason we have sixmans on our calendar, for gear acquisation. Because DD and 16th has rather bogus Radiance drops (stuff that is outperformed by the three-piece sets, thus only good for the +10 Radiance on them, which gets replaced by a +20 radiance piece anyway), and the higher level of difficulty, it's not something worth the effort of farming for Radiance, and thus no calendar. The ends justify the means in this case: Put on the calendar in order to prep for the Watcher. Otherwise they wouldn't touch the calendar, simply because they're sixmans, and sixmans aren't worth the organization and effort.

If DD or 16th wants to be run for the experience and not the Radiance, or even for other gear, then the calendar is not the place for it. Sixmans, again, are just simply not worth it. Before the calendar existed we used to get signups via forum posts. We still do get signups via forum posts for helping with deeds or sixmans or whatever. That's probably the easiest way to get something done "just for the experience".

As for alts, we geared out a little quicker than we anticipated. I think Rigel's right on in that we probably don't specifically need an "alt day", but that allowing alts in on Farm Days is all that needs to be done, with Radiance priority to Mains, of course. That doesn't mean it has to be, though. Some great points in this thread for Officer Meeting discussion this Saturday, looking forward to it. :)

This is all just discussion, nothing is by any means set in stone. Keep this going, Hasties, this is good stuff. /thumbup

[Baindarr]

I know what you mean Maie and I agree to a point, we have a lot of people who are done with the main 4 instances and want to do something more, but without a lm or captain both 16th and dd are doomed for failure. So unless you and/or Z are available, neither instance can be done. Same with captains, you basically have stan and togarrg at this point, and my alt. If you don't have both a lm and a cap, again both instances are almost a guaranteed failure. I'm all for a challenge, but I've done the challenge of 16th and DD many times and some groups just won't work there. It isn't a matter of throwing a random group together and just hitting it until you win. Some group makeups are just not going to be able to. Many are not able to in fact. I want everyone in the kin to be able to go in these place, and I want them to succeed.

From my perspective, I try to do these runs as often as I can, and have done so. So I'm not sure what more I can do. It's simply a matter of availability, to do the instances and have a chance, you need key people to both be on and available. And when that happens, I almost always get one of those 2 runs going. If other people want to try the other instances, then what's stopping them? Do they need a scheduled calendar run to go? From what I've seen that hasn't stopped people from doing other instances. So I guess the real question is, why am I one of the only ones who tries to put these groups together? What is holding people back from going on their own? I've seen very few attempts by people to get 16th or dd runs going, and when I have seen them, they don't seem to work out so well. Either 1 or 2 people are interested and noone else in the kin responds to their requests for help, or a group gets together and wipes alot.

So do we need these instances on the calendar to get them going? Or do we just need more people in the kin to step up and get groups going? Either way, if you go in without at least the correct core group of players, you are just going to end up with repair bills and nothing else. I have lost a great deal of gold finding that out.

I'm open to suggestions and ideas.I respectfully disagree about needing a LM to complete DD or 16th. I will agree the Captain is almost a must in the fellowship, well at least they dramatically improve your chances of success with the extra buffs, heals, rezzes and ability to off tank. Our core group consisted of Guard, Mini, Capt, Hunter, Burg and Champ. The champ is really nice for the aoe dps on some of the multi pulls. I'd recommend the Burg has finished his/her improved riddle trait (the exact name escapes me) from Moria, the one where you have to get 75 resists on riddle. Much better sticks on riddle with that slotted. Everyone probably has to use a few more pots for the run as the LM's cures aren't there, but with the coin you make during each run, this is a rather trivial sacrifice. Not trying to pat myself on the back, but I can't tell you how many times the group called for that crucial FM and having a Burg that manages his/her cooldowns saves that wipe much more times than not. Of course, being a Burg this last statement is completely biased, I'm not proud, I'll admit it! :p

In a matter of a couple weeks, the group of us coming from TLH completed all 6 instances to outfit all of us and others we had helped individually with all 6 pieces without a LM. I consider all 6 to be fairly easy when you have a group that listens to the leader and doesn't slack off. Also knowing what each member brings to the fellowship for each of the instances goes a long way in increasing odds of success.

I strongly agree with the suggestion of running them with 4 players that know them. It becomes much more efficient to get others geared up as there tends to be much less problems with members that may be infamiliar with the instance or the group's mechanics.

Send me a tell if ya need help, if you can't find me, I'm more than likely hanging out on my Warg in the Moors.

Baindarr
60 Hobbit Burglar R4

Blackbuals
Warg R5

[Rook]

We have had success running 16th and DD with LM or Burg. I've never been lucky enough to have both but you really do need one or the other to at least get 16th done without a lot of hassle, you could probably get lucky and get DD done without either but expect the fights to be long and hard. I've also noticed it's much easier to get these two done when everyone has the 4 set pieces already, especially for key like classes Guardian and Minstrel.

It can also be done just as well with 5 people or 6. The key is for people to know their classes and what other the classes can and can't do.

I know the fights pretty well for all 6 instances and I'd be glad to help people get their gear.